Help with the band

[thecajunboy]

Guys, you, the ones in bands. I need advice.

All my life I've wanted to be in a band. Not being in one yet is my fault for not pursuing it more feverishly. But alas, I now have the chance. Some work friends and others already have a "band", but they need a bass player. I'm not really a bass player, but I have the gear, and can play it decently enough to get the job done. Most of our situations with work, kids, and real lives are similar, so I fit right in on most levels.

So what's the problem? We suck! In a major way. And its not my fault. You'll be able figure this out pretty quickly probably. Lineup is 1 drummer that likes to speed up when he gets excited, 1 guitar player (lefty, so I find it tougher to follow him if I need to), 1 half fast bass player, 1 lead vocal, 1 keyboard player, 1 more keyboard player. Yep, 2 key tappers.

Its only been about 6 weeks since they asked me to help out on bass. I was given a disc with about 45 tunes to learn. Some of the songs I've never even heard. Some I don't like. Nevertheless I pick all the low hanging fruit and show up to the first few practices with almost half in the bag. I work hard at this shit every night to get the basslines down just like the originals. When I get to practice to play, I find out they play some of them up or down 1/2 step here and there. That pisses me off because I can't readily transpose on the fly that quick. And some of the songs sound like ass when I play with them. I'm golden with the CD, but they suck.

At last night's practice I think i figured out where the biggest problem is. Them damned keyboards. These guys started the band with a different (and weaker) guitar player, and no bass. They used the 2 keys guys to make up for all of that. Unfortunately, they're still making up for it. One of the keyboarders plays way too much, and some of the stuff is a bit different from the recordings and some of his notes clash with my bass lines. None of them fuckers was gonna say a damned thing about it. They were happy just to get through the songs. Last night I opened my mouth about a few of them and we actually straightened some of the goofy shit they do out. The bigger task is to convey to the keyboard fellas the idea that just because they have a keyboard in front of them, that they don't have to always play the thing. And when they play, them boys like to flood the place with notes.

Do I stick it out for awhile and see what happens, or tell them to take a hike now?

[whiskeyzulu]

2 keyboard players are, IMO, 2 too many unless your in a billy joel cover band or another tribute heavily dominated by keys I've yet to have a good keyboarder player in any band. the only keys that work for me is the laid back leslie organ sound filing in the nooks and crannies

its an awkward situation at best and doubtful if it will ever work the way you want - I'd say, keep an eye out on craigslist for another project - in the meantime, pat yourself on the back for your efforts to date and keep putting together your song book and have fun - that s what its suppose to be about - right?

[marcnorth]

Show up with a few new tunes you like and tell them you should replace some of the suck ass songs with some of the ones you like that are better songs. Then it puts you more of a level playing field with them.

I went through the same thing with the band I'm with now as far as suck ass songs. They had some real winners when I first started playing with them. I don't have a problem telling them if I think a song sucks but I'll say we should replace it with this (insert song) instead which we'll sound much better on. Then everybody has to learn the song and it works out much better that way. It will make you tighter doing it this way. So far it's worked out really well for me and they even agree we sound much better now.

I agree you have at least one too many keyboard players. Nothing worse than a keyboard player that thinks he has to play bass on his keyboard because most of the time it clashes with the bass part and makes the bass player look bad and the band sound like shit.

As far as the drummer goes tell him if he's speeding it up. Maybe it will keep him on his toes and get him to concentrate more on his speed. When we play a song and the drummer speeds it up (or sometimes slows it down) at a certain part when we're done playing it either myself or the guitar player will always say "it sounded pretty good but we started to speed up (or slow down) right after the solo or break or verse or whatever. Then next time we play the song we'll say "lets watch the speed" on this one.

I say stick it out for a few months and see if you can change it to be more like what you want it to be. It's taken us a little over a year to start getting tight but we sound as good or better now than most of the local bands around Indy that play the clubs. And who knows, maybe you'll piss off one of the keyboard players and he'll quit. If nothing else keep jamming with them until you can't take it anymore and then tell them to take a hike. It will be good experience to take to your next band.

[Steve Haynie]

Keyboard players almost always overplay. They can do a bass line with the left hand while playing a solo with the right. The ones who learn how to play within a band context will keep things simple and only get busy when necessary. Keyboard players like that are impossible to find. There is a safe bet that any keyboard player that wants to be in a band will play like he is trying to cover everyone's parts-- including the drummer.

If you think your band sucks, you can work on that in pieces. You already addressed some issues, so it is possible to work with these guys. Does the band play with the correct feeling for every song or do the songs get mashed up with everyone playing his "part" of the song? Everyone has to feel the song the same way. One way to pull everyone in is to emphasize the dynamics. Play the quiet parts quietly and the bold parts with emphasis. Even if your dynamics seem a little exaggerated keep doing them that way. It will pull everyone together. Make sure your drummer does not slow down during the quiet parts and speed up for the loud parts.

[gorch]

The one and only thing to come around this mess is to talk things out.

Discuss your issues with them. When they are open minded you will have solved the problems piece by piece. Otherwise, you will leave the band one day.

There is even a chance that one of the other guys will leave the band in case he doesn't want to follow another trail.

The end of the discussion certainly is open.

[kenjones]

Schedule a rehearsal without the keyboard players, run through some songs, and see how it sounds.

On the other hand, my experience has been that if a a band just doesn't sound very good it's usually the drummer. The drummer can make or break a band more than any other member.

[Thundernotes]

I used to get the bitching from our guitar player that the bass was too loud. It took a while to figure out, but the keyboards were playing my lines and doubling the bass volume.

There are some very difficult things to fix in this project, and they'll be the downfall of it eventually: Drummers with uneven meter at our age will probably never fix it. Bad song selection is a hallmark of keyboard players - they are renowned for having shit taste in music.

Personally, I'd hunt the craigslist and music store bulletin boards for a more suitable project. If you want to play bass, you'll likely learn more and get better quicker with a group who are slightly above your level of ability. With the lack of decent bass players, you may find they'll be patient with you if you're solid and lock in with the drummer, and show up on time.

[Rocktuna]

If they're happy playing that way who are you to come in and criticize.

Your the new guy, tread lightly or you'll be known as the arrogant dick who tried to take over the band. Then all you'll have is enemies.

Trust me I know, I've spoken my mind in several bands and now I refer to several ex-band mates as the "hate Ron fan club"

Your best bet is to leave, in a friendly manner of coarse.

[blackfbiv]

Drummers with uneven meter at our age will probably never fix it.

I have no doubt that the drummer can learn...BUT will he be willing to do the time. It will take a LOT of work..

Maybe something like this will help him?

http://www.petersontuners.com/index.cfm?category=132

All around it's going to be a tough sled... if the others in the band are your friends and 'worth' the effort then I say go for it. If nothing else you will learn a ton and find yourself progressing as a musician.

2 keyboards, hey?

That's my 2 cents anywyas...

[MCChris]

Your best bet is to leave

You're right about this. The rest of your post is off-base. Keeping quiet about subpar performances in rehearsal is a one-way ticket to public embarrassment and zero chance at second bookings. Makes no difference under what circumstances you were brought into the band.

[serial]

The more people you have in a band, the more parts you have to organize/worry about. I've been in trios that had average skills that sounded far better than extremely talented five-pieces. Busy sounds bad. Agreed it'd tough to tell someone "hey dude, try NOT playing what you're playing and it'll sound better" can't help but sound like an insult. I've had some success with getting people to not play so much by finding a particular song that HAS to sound tight (accented chords, starts and stops, etc) and explaining how less is more on those songs. With all but one band, it bled over into other things and the two guitar players played fewer notes, keyboardist didn't always bang on the board to fill the silence and the bass player didn't add fills that weren't there.

Finding a gig as a guitar player isn't usually easy. Everybody needs a bass player it seems. I got hooked up with one of the hottest local bands in the area after never seemng to get much off of the ground for years by faking it and saying I played bass. A friend knew the vocalist and when their bass player went AWOL before a big gig, he called me and asked if I played bass. I didn't even have a bass amp, but grabbed a little one quickly and woodshedded three sets of material in a week and a half enough to do the gig. I showed up (and on time) which apparently is something that rarely happens(?). I haven't been without a band or gig for more than two weeks since and that was ten years ago.

I'm sure that there are online local music classifieds or band referral sites you could check out too if this situation doesn't work out.

Good luck and most importantly, have fun with it!

[Lockbody]

The more people you have in a band, the more parts you have to organize/worry about. I've been in trios that had average skills that sounded far better than extremely talented five-pieces.

Good luck and most importantly, have fun with it!

See: James Gang songs performed by The Eagles

Good luck and most importantly, have fun with it!

If'n you ain't makin' money, it needs to be fun. If'n you ain't makin' money or havin' fun, get out.

[BadgerDave]

My opinion, for what it's worth:

I'd lay low and use the opportunity to sharpen my bass skills.

Learn the parts, then forget about playing them note-for-note with this band. Let the keyboard pilots fly and lock in on the root and fifth with the drummer. Assume you're going to play 1/3 of the notes you know are in the "real" bass line and, by locking down the tempo, force the drummer to keep in time. Stand in front of him and lock eyes. When he starts to speed up, emphasize the "1" and don't waiver. turn up if you have to.

Don't be confrontational or tell anyone that they're doing something wrong, but do everything right yourself. If they accuse you of dragging, bring a metronome "to keep yourself honest".

Be amused by the situation and use it as an opportunity to learn. If they don't improve, take your repitoire of new material and play with others.

[polara]

I like BadgerDave's advice. Use it as a learning exercise in what it's like to be in a band, keep a low profile, and remember if they didn't know the drummer's tempos are off and the keys overplay... they assuredly will not appreciate the new guy who has never been in a band before telling them their shortcomings.

Keep in mind too that if you've not been in a band you may be doing one or more things wrong and you're not yet aware of it. If it gets to be no fun, gracefully leave, saying that they really have bass covered with two capable keyboard players, and you're just "in their way." Never burn bridges.

[MCChris]

Agreed it'd tough to tell someone "hey dude, try NOT playing what you're playing and it'll sound better" can't help but sound like an insult.

Anyone who would be insulted by that isn't a true musician.

As others have alluded to, stick with these guys for as long as you can stomach it and work on your own chops. Meanwhile, look for other opportunities and go on some auditions. Don't settle.

if they didn't know the drummer's tempos are off and the keys overplay...

... then apparently Mark's not the only one who's never been in a band before.

Never burn bridges.

He's not auditioning for the symphony or Zappa Plays Zappa here. Who cares about burning bridges with a bunch of weekend warriors from work? I'm not saying he should be a dick, but to suggest that he keep a low profile while he's surrounded by mediocrity? Aw hell naw!

[tomteriffic]

Q: How many bass players does it take to change a light bulb?

A: None. The keyboardist does it with his left hand.

I agree, Mark that's at least one too many keyboardists. And this is coming from a guy whose primary instrument was keys for the first half of his life. Further, I'm assuming you are doing a variety of covers and VERY occasionally will need some non-bass-guitar low-end rumbles for atmosphere or some goofy Moog-type bass lines. Or big orchestral/bombastic Queen or Yes stuff. Those are the songs to get off the list as soon as possible, just on general principles.

Other than that, a keyboardist's left hand should be used to play right-hand parts on another instrument, say an organ wash on one hand and pianah plinkin' on the other. Other than that they can get too damn busy. I used to do what was necessary on keys with my right and hammer rhythm guitar chords with my left sometimes. Like about one or two songs a night.

Suggest to the one-too-many keyboardists that they try playing only the right-hand parts just once, and see if that helps clean up the sludge.

Oh, and:

Q: How can you tell it's your drummer at the door?

A: The knock speeds up.

I've been lucky in that regard.....

[thecajunboy]

Man you guys are the best. You all give great advice. I should probably walk away from this one, but I'd like to stay awhile and try to see if it can get better. Its really gonna be an uphill challenge though. Why? because there are several givens regarding the line up.

Drummer - He's got the space and gear that make for a good practice space. That's a plus, and I think he's a good enough drummer to hang and stay in time if we cut some of the noise out. As Ken Jones suggested, we've already had some chances to play without the keyboards, and things were tighter, with tempo more under control. Bad news is that he's got a brother.

Keyboarder # 1 - Yep, he's the drummer's brother, and pretty much comes with the package. I've played with the drummer a few years back with a coupla guitar buddies and he was introduced to us back then. We had to play stuff with keys so he could play along and be "in the band". He's the techno-nerd type. Likes to sport a keyboard with a shoulder strap, and the damned thing is painted Van Halen style. And he's got a friend. K1 is also somewhat of a default official leader of the band. He has the biggest mouth and the other guys have been hesitant to question his opinions or advice. What he says pretty much goes.

Guitar - Keyboarder # 1's friend. He's really a nice guy with challenges to his schedule. I'm not sure if he can cut it as a single guitar player for a band. He can play, but its possible he just keeps getting choked back by all the keys.

All of the above are connected, so I doubt K1 can get booted off the team without taking someone else along.

Keyboarder # 2 - Easily the most talented of all of us. Knows a shitboat full of songs, and can sing. He's the one that helps me along with bass lines that I haven't learned yet. He's also proven that he's willing to listen to me. The other night we were playing a song that had some bad spots. I was able to stop them mid song I pointed out that they were playing a few wrong chords. He looked at me sorta funny, then tried what I said, then replied "You're right". Once we got it straight they we're all cool with the correction. Before I came along they were all making the same mistakes. Ironically, he's probably the one that the band could get past letting go with the least impact. He's a college student, and from out of state. He'll probably bolt on his own somewhere along the line. The rest of us are mid-30s & mid 40s local guys with career jobs.

Vocalist - Good pipes on some stuff, weak on others. Plays guitar too, but the band previously asked him to leave it alone. He's in my camp and respects my opinion, and the candid opinions of the band and its goals that I've shared with him privately.

Bass - That's me. Tempo ain't my fault. I've actually played with a coupla bands before and not had problems locking in. Just never had a band to call my own and play our for money. Also had a helluva lot of fun with Jeffro and Kajun Kelly, both now big stars in TrueTooLife. Together we enjoyed some great times cranking out A-Freaks tunes at Polluted Womb Studio. After my first few sessions I had figured out that the band needed help to get better. They won't get better if I don't say a few things. If they run me off, then they remain what they are and I don't have to get up on stage and embarrass myself. If they listen and work through some things, we can all get better and have fun.

Luckily the past 24 hours has generated some e-mail discussions amongst the band members. I offered a dissenting opinion on a couple of songs suggested by K1 and the floodgates of text broke open. Quite a few emails went around. Its like I pulled the pin on the grenade. Good discussions though. Most of the sentiments were in favor of what I had to say. I think everybody else may have been to shy or scared to say anything because K1 usually squashed things. Out of the melee we're gonna get a dedicated practice calendar and some agreement to quit fucking off at practice and come ready to work on agreed upon stuff.

If you've read this far, pat yourself on the back. Thanks for making it to the bottom of this note. I really needed to vent some of these feelings and get validation on what I think is right.

[Ethan]

Bands take work, I wouldn't ditch right off just because things suck for now. Just be honest and open and treat everyone with respect. Get the drummer on a click if his tempo continues to suck. I think it would be a good opportunity to work on your bass playing as others have mentioned. Good luck!

[Hamer Time]

OK you need to go in Gordan Ramsay style, 'Rock Band Nightmares'.

Take the keyboard thumpers and set them up so they're facing back to back when playing, tie their left hands to each other behind their backs, and move their casios so only one can reach their keys at a time.

If nothing else, that would be fun to watch...

[HAMERMAN]

I like BagderDave's take on things.

+1 on getting the drummer a metronome. Going forward try to agree on the tempo (and the key when possible) as soon as you pick the tunes. Everybody agreeing on and worrying about the tempo will also make it easier for the drummer to incorporate a metronome with ego in tact.

The two keyboard player thing is the hardest one of all. Does either guy know how to play guitar so they can at least play rhythm for the tunes that don't need 2 keyboards (which would be almost everything unless you guys are a Depeche Mode tribute band)?

You may also find that once you get to a regular schedule one or more players drop out due to time constraints, especially if and when you start gigging. Of course given what you have said that guy would likely be K2 rather than K1.

Maybe picking the right material is the real issue, with that line up I would go with 80's synth-pop; stuff like Howard Jones, Depeche Mode, Eurythmics, New Order. I would love to see a band like that but I fear I may be in the minority. :-)

[LefThanDed]

The Time: one of the tightest bands to ever throw down with two keyboard players and guitar shredding.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FniTZ72S6D8

On the other hand... Keytars, capes, and any mention of Rick Wakeman's Arthurian Legend on Ice... RUN!

[Caddie]

My opinion, for what it's worth:

I'd lay low and use the opportunity to sharpen my bass skills.

Learn the parts, then forget about playing them note-for-note with this band. Let the keyboard pilots fly and lock in on the root and fifth with the drummer. Assume you're going to play 1/3 of the notes you know are in the "real" bass line and, by locking down the tempo, force the drummer to keep in time. Stand in front of him and lock eyes. When he starts to speed up, emphasize the "1" and don't waiver. turn up if you have to.

Don't be confrontational or tell anyone that they're doing something wrong, but do everything right yourself. If they accuse you of dragging, bring a metronome "to keep yourself honest".

Be amused by the situation and use it as an opportunity to learn. If they don't improve, take your repitoire of new material and play with others.

+1!

This is your first band experience. It sounds like this gang has lots of things to deal with (2 kybds, drummer from Deadliest Catch, etc). They don't need nor will they appreciate criticism (no matter how true it may be) from a newbie. Use this as an opportunity to learn bass and how to deal with the idiosyncracies of bandmates.

No matter who you play with there will always be some issues. John, Paul & George hated sharing a microphone. George had bad oral hygiene.

caddie

[Siaip Ciuvas]

On the other hand, my experience has been that if a a band just doesn't sound very good it's usually the drummer. The drummer can make or break a band more than any other member.

+1 on the drummer, but I would add "rythm section" is what makes a good band good or ... not!

I have seen recently a band, which consisted of two average guitarists one good drummer and begginer bass player. It ruined the whole thing. Both in rythm section must be on a good level and "talk to each other".

and by the way two key tappers is really too much for whatever style, unless its electric synth band, which is not, judging on the fact they need a bass player.

[Brooks]

So what's the problem? We suck! And its not my fault.

haha!! this sums up my whole halfassed "music career"!!!

badger's advice is good; i'll add that when it starts to implode, try to pick the best members and see if they want to start a new project. bass is a good spot if you can play and don't want to be stuck in shitty projects.

[elduave]

Likes to sport a keyboard with a shoulder strap, and the damned thing is painted Van Halen style.

That's a deal-breaker.

[Caddie]

Likes to sport a keyboard with a shoulder strap, and the damned thing is painted Van Halen style.

That's a deal-breaker.

keyboard with a shoulder strap, eh?

Is this the core of your band?

I see the kybd with the shoulder strap!

caddie

THE Red Green Show Band

starring

Nephew Harold on shoulder keys