concerts: are they too loud?, I might be too old?, or both?

[Jimbilly]

I usually bring earplugs, keep them partially in for much of the show, maybe take them out for the favorite songs, I've done this for probably 30 years now, I think my hearing is still mostly intact.  I recently saw Big Wreck, I was pretty near the stage, it was LOUD, I could hear the subs getting flubby, I could feel the thump in the front of the throat just below my adams apple. My friend said his pantlegs were moving from the subs.  After a few songs I had to head to the back even with the earplugs shoved way in because it was a little bit painful, it sounded better near the sound booth. 

 I can't imagine listening to anything through headphones or a home/car stereo at concert volumes (does anyone do that?).  I appreciate Jazz Alley in Seattle, it's typically as loud as I am comfortable with without earplugs.  My opinion is that the volume should be near the edge of discomfort, not unpleasantly loud without earplugs, but close to it.

   I get it a little, that the typical concert goer wants a loud experience, but I don't understand how so many people can handle or enjoy that sort of volume, and it appears that many don't wear earplugs.  I have a db meter, I'm going to try to remember to bring it with me next time.  

[Steve Haynie]

There have been some loud shows with clear sound.  That is the main thing-- sound that is not muddy.  Sometimes the volume can be so loud that overtones are perceived along with notes in some frequencies being out of tune.  Standing waves are a sign that the subs are overdoing what they need to do.  That stuff just makes a band sound bad.  

There have been times the sound at shows has had all those problems.  Too much volume is a part of the problem.  Earplugs usually help counter that.

My earplugs are always in my ears.  They do not come out for special songs.  However, at the final KISS show I did not use earplugs because for some reason I wanted the "full effect" of a loud rock concert.  The sound was loud and clear.  My ears did not ring afterward.  The sound man got it right.  It was loud but not a lot of sonic mush.  

[HSB0531]

   I do a lot of tech support at concerts for one particular venue.  The system always gets pushed hard, and even ear plugs don't cut it.  The venue seats 5,000 and the total system power to the line arrays, subs, and front fills is 200,000 watts.  It gets insanely loud sometimes, and dampens my desire to go and see a concert.  

 

 

[scottcald]

Too much low end and not clear or too much in the 2-5kHz region will make it unbearable.   It's said that 85dB or above for more than 30 minutes straight can cause damage.  I think that's true, but also like a lot of other things it's not going to be a big problem all at once, just little bits at a time.    I think for me, the loudest shows I've been to were ages ago - Iron Maiden/Accept at Merriwether Post Pavilion and Judas Priest on the Defenders of the Faith tour.    Also, the way shows were done then in the indoor places just created more reflected sound and build up in those high mids.  

[beezerboy]

[gorch]

Regardless of acoustic or electric, concerts are loud. It doesn‘t make sense otherwise. The liveliness of music requires a certain dynamic to be enjoyable. But, it shouldn‘t hurt. Usually, I don‘t wear ear plugs. They make the sound dump, cut of the highs to much. Something, I don‘t want to pay for. Also at home I tend to rise the volume to enjoy the dynamics.

[DaveH]

7 hours ago, Jimbilly said:

I usually bring earplugs, keep them partially in for much of the show, maybe take them out for the favorite songs,

I could feel the thump in the front of the throat just below my adams apple. My friend said his pantlegs were moving from the subs.

I used to do this too... Haven't been to a concert since I started wearing hearing aids tho.

The loudest concert I've been to was Black Sabbath's reunion tour... My pant legs were moving too!

[Disturber]

I used to go up to a show every week 20 years ago. These days I hardly go once a month. But my spontaneous reaction to the concerts I've been to in recent years is that they are not loud enough. European regulations say that the authorized sound levels may vary from 90 dB(A) to 114 dB(A) with momentary peaks up to 140 dB(C). I sometimes felt that the shows lack punch and enough bone crushing volume. You are not supposed to be able to speak to friends or other people in the audience. More is more.

[ARM OF HAMER]

                          Loudest concert that I have been to bar none was THE WHO [ Playing most of the songs from WHO'S NEXT"] at the old Met Center in Bloomington, Minnesota. Zeppelin was loud also when they played here but they had a different kind of sound. For a smaller venue I'd have to go with TRIBAL TECH with Scott Henderson. I brought my wife along, and we were seated at the Fine Line Cafe [Minneapolis] right in front of the band and when they started playing we both looked like this. 

[princeofdarkness56]

I use to do security at a couple of venues and many times I was up close to the stage. Loudest was a stoner band called Sleep. The guitarist and the bass player were each playing through three Orange full stacks. And they weren’t for show, all were plugged in. Painfully loud even with ear protection. Even the house roadies were complaining. Second loudest concert I saw was Motörhead and Alice Cooper. I think it was a competition to see who could be the loudest. 

[Steve Haynie]

Molly Hatchet's "thing" was to be louder than other bands.  They did not have to do that.  They just did.  

Their stage was one block over from where I was running sound on a different stage.  They were sonically stepping all over the bands on my stage.  Festival staff had to tell Molly Hatchet's sound guy to turn down the volume.

[hamerhead]

Aerosmith, 1978, Dane County Coliseum. Started out great but by mid-set was so fucking loud it was nothing but white noise. I was 18 at the time and to this day it is THE loudest, most painful concert I've been to. Pretty sure that's where my permanent tinnitus started.

[velorush]

Random thoughts:

Van Halen Diver Down tour at the Mid-South Coliseum (December 2, 1982 - cool you can look that stuff up now) started out really loud, but at some point, probably 2/3 in they revealed a curtain that appeared to be additional speakers piled to the top of the building.  At that point the mains were turned up to the point of pain - wasn't really fun after that.

I noticed at some point in the 90's live mixes changed.  Suddenly incredible mud was the norm. Maybe there were new, more powerful subwoofers that were still novel to everyone. We seem to have worked ourselves out of that, but it wasn't pretty.

Rush, Clockwork Angels tour at the Bridgestone Arena (May 1, 2013) was incredible. It was no louder than a reasonably cranked home stereo and incredibly detailed. Probably the best live mix I've ever heard - loud, but just loud enough.

I have had tinnitus in my left ear for years.  It got much worse a couple of years ago. One day last summer I was driving home from work, windows down (I still prefer open windows to A/C, even in the summertime), and it occurred to me the wind noise was pretty loud - 91 dB according to the Apple watch.  Explains the worsening tinnitus in the left ear.

I try to keep the mix at around 85 - 87 dB in Sunday services, but when the place is full and people are singing out a familiar song it can well exceed that.

[kizanski]

1 hour ago, hamerhead said:

Aerosmith, 1978, Dane County Coliseum. Started out great but by mid-set was so fucking loud it was nothing but white noise. I was 18 at the time and to this day it is THE loudest, most painful concert I've been to. Pretty sure that's where my permanent tinnitus started.

For me it was KISS at Madison Square Garden - July, 1980.
A sports arena not known for its acoustics hosting one of the loudest bands ever.  Not a good combination for clarity of sound and hearing health.
I’ve always described it as “so loud that I couldn’t hear anything."

[Jimbilly]

I think the best I heard was Billy Idol (with SS) 20 or 21 years ago, outdoors at the Seattle waterfront: clear and detailed, loud without any pain.  I thanked the soundguy afterwards (see, I don't just complain all the time). 

 Also, Tracy Chapman in about '98 at the Paramount in Seattle. I wasn't a huge fan, but a co worker had an extra ticket due to a recent breakup. That sort of show (with piano, and acoustic guitars) shouldn't be super loud anyway, but I remember that it was exceptionally well mixed, and was a very enjoyable show.

 Re hearing damage, when I used to do sound I was always mindful of and respectful of being loud and hopefully without damaging anyone's hearing, and I would often wear earplugs in the car on the way home with the stereo off: I wonder how many people have damaged their hearing by playing their car stereo really loud on a long drive home after the show? (given that db x time = hearing damage)

[RobB]

1 hour ago, Jimbilly said:

I wonder how many people have damaged their hearing by playing their car stereo really loud on a long drive home after the show? (given that db x time = hearing damage)

The Fender (WTF?) stereo in my GTI Autobahn can get stupidly loud. Many times people crank their car stereos because road noise is so loud in the car. Luckily, the cabin in my VW is very quiet. Even AM radio sounds good. 

[RobB]

Motörhead/Rough Cutt at Billy Barty’s Roller Fantasy (I shit you not!) in Fullerton, CA. “Another Perfect Day” tour, 1982. Huge PA with an oval, concrete floor? The sound was bouncing everywhere. Lemmy sounded like he was speaking in tongues. 
 

[alantig]

I've been to too many shows lately where the attitude has been "There's a subwoofer?  How loud can we make it?"  I saw one opener where all you could hear was the bass and kick - no vocals, no guitars, unless the low end had stopped.  Total disregard for the sound mix.  A few years ago, I saw John 5 at a small club - the sound was perfect.  Some yahoo by the sound board kept going over to the sound guy and telling him to turn it up, and the sound guy finally said, "Why would I touch this?  It's perfect!"  Said something to him after the show that I saw that guy and that the sound was the best I'd heard for John 5, and it didn't need anything, and he said, "I know, right?  Thank you for noticing."  Loud, but not ear-splitting.

I wear ear plugs at almost all shows, and I use a db app on my phone before I decide I can do a whole show w/o the plugs, although I will pull them for certain songs.  The ones I have are Vibes, and to me, they clear the mix up nicely - they cut some of the low end mud, and maybe some of the high end, but I think that's more just the overall reduction in loudness.  We saw Glenn Hughes this year in a small club, and he was playing w/arena-like volume.  I took the plugs out for "Highway Star", and I was stunned at how loud it really was.  I wish I'd done a db level during that.

[spanky]

ZZtop 2018 summer tour, hockey arena. Brutally loud, distorted, and lots of woof woof sound. The poor sound ruined the experience of seeing one of my fav bands. Did they even do a proper soundcheck? The opening act sound was fine, but ZZ tried to blow up the speakers and our ears. I bring earplugs just in case now.

I also went to see them 30 yrs prior, in an arena, George Thorogood opened, it sounded great. Somebody did the mix homework for both bands.

[scottcald]

In the late 80s playing in a band for a while playing in and around the DC metro area, one place had a guy who was a jerk, but owned the system and was good at running it.  The other guy who'd run sound just wanted it loud.  We were playing once with the 2nd guy running.  Saw a couple ball up napkins to put in their ears.  Less than 10 minutes later, they came up to the stage, threw the napkin bits at us and left.   It was painful onstage too. 

33 minutes ago, spanky said:

ZZtop 2018 summer tour, hockey arena. Brutally loud, distorted, and lots of woof woof sound. The poor sound ruined the experience of seeing one of my fav bands. Did they even do a proper soundcheck? The opening act sound was fine, but ZZ tried to blow up the speakers and our ears. I bring earplugs just in case now.

I also went to see them 30 yrs prior, in an arena, George Thorogood opened, it sounded great. Somebody did the mix homework for both bands.

I forgot that I'd seen ZZ on the Eliminator tour with Hagar opening.  Hagar's sound was good, but  like you, when ZZ came on, we were in like the 8th or 10th row, right in line with the stage amps.  It was terrible and also ruined that experience.   

[hamerhead]

1 hour ago, scottcald said:

...a guy who was a jerk, but owned the system and was good at running it.  The other guy who'd run sound just wanted it loud.....

There's a guy around here too that somehow gets a lot of work but only knows loud. No highs, no lows, doesn't matter the venue, doesn't matter the show - just face-blistering loud. He's a bit of a dick as well.

[cmatthes]

2 hours ago, scottcald said:

In the late 80s playing in a band for a while playing in and around the DC metro area, one place had a guy who was a jerk, but owned the system and was good at running it.  The other guy who'd run sound just wanted it loud.  We were playing once with the 2nd guy running.  Saw a couple ball up napkins to put in their ears.  Less than 10 minutes later, they came up to the stage, threw the napkin bits at us and left.   It was painful onstage too. 

Would LOVE to know what venue that was! 😂

[cmatthes]

Loudest/worst show sound (out of hundreds of shows over the decades) is a tie between RATT in Greensboro, NC (December, 1986), and Rocket From the Crypt opening for Soundgarden (November, 1998) in Fairfax, VA.

Seriously.  I think I still have hearing loss attributed to those shows, and we walked out of the RATT show after 3 songs.  Soundgarden was the headliner, and Chris Cornell actually apologized for their opener’s volume onslaught.

[Brooks]

Its a mixed bag, some shows sound good and some suck. It can be done correctly, Rush is a good example. I do remember deciding not to see any more thrash metal bands in arenas in the late 80s, the fast riffs and double bass drums just don't work in large rooms. The last big show I went to was Phish (not a fan, but my pal is), we were in the orchestra pit so it was hard to say how it actually sounded. Nowadays I typically only see smaller jazz & fusion gigs in clubs (Aristocrats, Charlie Hunter, Greg Koch), which are excellent all around.

[scottcald]

28 minutes ago, cmatthes said:

Would LOVE to know what venue that was! 😂

Can't recall the name of it right now.  It was an upstairs venue in College Park, so the added awesomeness of carrying all our gear up narrow stairs.  The guy who was good was named Ray and the guy who wasn't was Ben.

EDIT:  This was like 87-88.